One article about the new "super" youth detention centre in Toronto thought it was wrong because the family and community would not have access to the young criminals. I disagree, I think the family and community life is what has created this young criminal, and therefore they should be taken totally out of their current situation, a time out if you will.
Do we put them in jails? No. House arrest? Right, let the little criminal sit at home in the environment that created the problem in the first place. Not. What about a boot camp for baby criminals? This seems to have some effect, especially on the young ones that are forced to do such horrible things as get up early, play nice and listen to adults. It appears that lefty Canada doesn't have any of these boot camps that I could find (if anyone knows about one, I would love to hear about it), but lefty California has a bunch of them, and they work better than jail.
Should the camps be closed?
L.A. County might close its 19 youth "day camps" because of state budget cuts. A day camp is not a boot camp or a summer camp—it's a type of jail where youth serve time after they're convicted of a crime. It's worse than being on house arrest or being in a group home placement, but not as bad as being in the California Youth Authority, the youth prisons where more serious offenders are housed.
L.A. Youth asked nine teens who had been in the camps: Should the camps be shut down? They said no. Even though they felt the camps didn't help them, the camps were safer and less strict than a youth prison or juvenile hall.
Read the nine teens opinions, what struck me most was that they didn't think they were the problem, they took no responsibility for their actions, here is one of them:
By D.C., 17-year-old male from Los Angeles
What did you do that first got you into the juvenile justice system?
Possession of a firearm.
Have you ever spent time in the day camps?
I was at Camp Holton [in San Fernando] for four months, then at Camp Smith [in Lancaster] for four months, then Camp Paige [in La Verne] for nine months.
What was your experience like in the day camps?
It was very boring and it does not teach you anything. It is just stressful and a waste of time because nobody seems to care and a lot of people get blamed for things they didn't do.
Do you think the day camps should be closed?
No, because more kids will go to prison or Y.A.
What are your future goals?
To graduate from high school and go to college.
Do you consider yourself a bad kid?
No, I do not consider myself a bad kid. I just hang around bad people.
I suggest we take the "good" kids out of the situation that makes them feel comfortable hanging with "bad" people. Maybe not a "boot" camp, but what about a farm environment. Seriously. Take the Toronto baby gangster and put them on a farm where they have to get up and milk the cows at 5:00 in the morning, then shovel out that barn, and then ride a horse to check on the herd, etc. Keep them so busy they don't have time to think about what their problems are at home. Give them a sense of accomplishment, and pride in their own abilities. Let them help plant that field of corn and watch it grow.
A simple, "you are awesome" can light up any kids face, but you can't BS them, they know the difference, they need to earn it. Like kids plant beans in grade one, and hopefully watch for it to sprout, take the disturbed youth into a new and positive environment and watch what can happen.
Forget the psychiatrist who talks endlessly to families and effects no change. Send the family out of the community, out of the problem zone, into real life on a farm.
Boot camps for youths can work, because they give discipline, and a sense of purpose to a kid that has had little help or guidance.
34 comments:
Way to go, Hunter, another long day of controversial, uneducated postings. LOL
This has so much to do with child rearing and I'm going to say it, our unionized academic institutions.
When stay at home parents are treated with as much respect as the ones dropping their kids off with a 4.00 an hour babysitter, this may change.
That never will because we have a generation of adults, wanting instant gratification.
Government, to fix everything, make their lives easier so they don't have too.
This topic will last all day.Those evaluations are, just the tip of the iceberg!
Now, this is disgusting. Pardon my language but Sid Ryan is a complete and total asshole and Janice Folk-whatever is a complete and total bitch. Where do these jerks get off doing this sort of crap? This is Canada, for God's sake.
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=1146735
And anybody who thinks that this is acceptable can just kiss my ass.
No kidding East! This is where the tire hits the curb re unions.
I have heard Jack, whine and complain about the evil "big business" and whooa, what do we have here? Evil, big union, personified.
Re the subject, instead of buying all of the press time, media propaganda they could be opening on site day cares for their workers but no......that is the governments job, according to the pinko's.
Remember Reform School - I remember boys (and girls but not many) in my school getting into "trouble" and not being at our school anymore. The rumour was that they were sent to reform school which of course sent the fear into all of us.
(Cue the usual lefties to take exception to my comment).
Boot Camp--Reform School - Call it what you will, it worked and when the reform schools were closed because it hurt the self esteem of the criminal, the criminal gained the upper hand.
Bring them back!
EoE, you've gotta read more than The Post.
Can anyone really be thinking that any single party is actually in the right on this issue?
Who is a civilian?
AG: You say reform school like it's a good thing. If I remember correctly, reform schools were popular 20-30 years ago. Run by *cough* nuns and priests *snicker*. We all know how that turned out. There seems, however, to be a contradiction between what you and Bec are saying. When reform schools were popular, most women were at home with the kids. If this has so much to do with child rearing as Bec says, then why did they end up at these schools. Enquiring minds want to know!
While we're at it, how about those chain gangs?
And right on schedule SQ says
"Run by *cough* nuns and priests *snicker*."
My take - SQ - is that once Women went to work ( because of all the feminists telling us that yes - we could HAVE IT ALL) and the reform schools were closed - that was when the crime rate started going up.
Somehow, while you thought you were smacking me down; you were actually proving my point.
Silly SQ!
Pay attention AG.
The women were at home.
The kids were still going to reform school.
There must have been crime before, or they would not have been sent to reform schools.
SQ - there has always been crime. However, it wasn't so prevalent and we certainly did not have very young children committing adult crimes. But enough about trivial crap like SQ. On to Sid Ryan's blatant hatred of Jews - feel free to let CUPE know how you feel. Click on this link and send the union some feedback regarding Sid Ryan's Nazi vitriol.
http://cupe.ca/BE_feedback.php
Stereo - I read the Post, Globe, Citizen, Sun and a couple of foreign newspapers on-line every day. Sid Ryan said what he said, no matter what paper I read. The guy is a disgrace. I do hope the HRC comes down on the jerk.
No, no SQ, you have missed the point and I never said MOTHERS had to stay home but they are separate answers.
Reform schools were "a boot camp" and few kids needed to go there as AG said, you respected authority. So it was the really bad kids, mostly boys.
As far as the Mothers staying at home go, I never said that. I said "parents" and I also blamed unions as in teachers.
Teachers were at one time, part of the family structure, in a sense and that is no longer the case. Nor is quality in teaching as there is ZERO incentive to be better than your counterpart.
Pride is only for the newbies that want to change the world and lasts about year...(sarc)
Reform schools, when they were in operation in the past, did help to turn 'some' kids onto a different path. And sometimes, just knowing that they were in existence was enough to scare a kid.
As a teenager, I grew up in a traditional family setting, but was very rebellious and gave my parents a very hard time. When I was fifteen, they threatened to place me in reform school, but gave me one last chance. My best friend didn't get off with a warning and her mother sent her away. When she got out and told me everything that had happened to her, I went on the straight and narrow after that.
As a parent, I warned my son that at the first sign of trouble, I'd send him off to boot camp, no matter how much it cost. I've never had any problems with him. Whether the threat worked or he's just naturally a good kid, who knows!
I think there should be places like this in Canada, but there's a big difference between private boot camps and public reform schools. Government run facilities are too lax because staff have to be so careful that they don't 'offend' the kid's rights. Privately-paid camps are stricter because that's what the parent paid for. My ex used to be a social worker in a group home for young offenders, then he quit shortly after the Young Offenders Act was changed. He said it was like being a glorified baby-sitter.
Though it is the parents who need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their kids.
Cheer up EoE. The Globe has Peter Kent and Ottawa blaming Hamas - but I guess you knew that already.
Female CONvoter @ 10:22
"Though it is the parents who need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their kids."
Without doubt and your family did that with good tactics, imho.
I would only support private reform type systems. I think parents need to take the heat for their kids behaviour.
I have been to youth court to see the goings on and very few parents are in attendance.
The ones that are, when you watch the body language, tells you what will happen to the child if they "do it again"... That's parenting!
What is it about corporal punishment that gives conservatives a woody? Most people would be horrified about sending their children to these places. (Don't give me 'It hurts me more than it hurts you BS.) The private ones are the worst. Take a look at what happened in Florida.
"My ex used to be a social worker in a group home for young offenders, then he quit shortly after the Young Offenders Act was changed."
I bet he 'quit'. Can you say legal responsibility?
Stereo - I'm not debating Hamas vs Israel - I am ranting about Sid Ryan's hatred and bigotry. To want to ban Israeli academics from speaking or teaching in any university is not acceptable here in Canada. That is what is angering me.
SQ - we don't get a woody over corporal punishment. You sure get one over Hunter, though.
As far as corporal punishment - I'm quite sure that there are a lot of lefties who beat their children or who commit crimes against children. Now, try to add something intelligent instead of your usual smegma-infected drivel.
Bec @ 11:00
"I would only support private reform type systems. I think parents need to take the heat for their kids behaviour. "
Nice thought, but then only kids from middle or upper class would be in attendance because they could afford it. I don't know what the ratio is for troubled youth from different income brackets, but I think recent studies done show that poverty plays a big part of it.
Public reform schools now versus more superjails later and the volume of expenses paid in between by taxpayers (welfare, disabiliy, court costs, medications, drug rehabilitation,children's aid services,and on and on.
I'm far from being a bleeding heart, but if only a certain segment of the population do all the work, the problems are going to still be there.
Well yes fCv, I should have qualified that with an option however in many cases, money is far from the issue.
We must recognize that these kids are far from the average well behaved child. They do not make up the majority.
5 Bucks a day to pay it back would be a good incentive.
As far a corporal punishment goes, what a stretch SQ, always putting words in peoples mouth.
I believe Hunter used, hard farm work as an example. Not exactly a cane and switch. My children for example have never been spanked,so don't even go to your little extreme place that you tend to visit.
"What is it about corporal punishment that gives conservatives a woody?"
Uh, SQ - at least Conservatives can get "woody's". I am really not sure about your ilk as you seem to cry at the first sign of having to take any kind of responsibility and demanding that kids not commit crimes seems to send you over the edge.
I just wonder how you would feel if you were being targeted; if your car was stolen, or if your house broken into or, god forbid, a member of your family were killed. I just wonder if you would not expect that the book get thrown at the criminal. I just wonder if you would reach out and forgive the criminal as you have admonished Conservatives to do.
I just wonder, SQ, what you would do?
"Uh, SQ - at least Conservatives can get "woody's".
Oh man, I can't stop laughing, A-Girl. Why didn't I think of that. SQ probably hasn't been able to salute since puberty when it did him no good, anyway. Those pants only looked like they were corduroy. LOLOLOL
Sorry East - from now on - if you see my name - move your coffee away from your keyboard and cover your mouth. lol
I love the smell of ad hominem in the morning, and afternoon for that matter. Quite the smirk and snigger fest going on here.
Please carry on with your tittering, it is so entertaining!
Hahahahahahahaha!
Oh great, you're back (sarc).
Boohooboohooboohooboohoo!
Happy New Year, femaleCONvoter! I am pleased by your warm welcome. As per hunter's request I shall refrain from ridiculing you directly. I think hunter wants us to be more Parliamentary, so all snark must be addressed to the Speaker.
Madame hunter, the honourable member for rural Ontario is booing me! Waaaa!
I dislike the premise that this concept is being characterized as harsh and unusual punishment.
I also dislike the common circumstances now that the victims are rarely considered, if ever.
We have finally managed to have an innocent bystander MURDERED in a gangland hit, here in Calgary. Has everyone forgot the others from across this country? Had these little creeps been held to account at a early stage (because there were many signs) these behaviours and conditions could have been modified.
It is called REFORM which suggests change/modification.
These young punks need to be accountable to their victims and society otherwise no one is safe anywhere.
Unacceptable!
AG: I never said anything about not taking responsibility. If someone commits a crime, they should be accountable. But the punishment must fit the circumstances. I hope we never go the way the US did with the three strikes and your out rule.
"I hope we never go the way the US did with the three strikes and your out rule."
SQ, I know that you posed that to,
AG but what do you mean by that?
3 murders? 3 Drug Deals? 3 B&E's?
Let me tell you, the US and Canadian systems are like apples and oranges. No one that I know of wants, an American judicial system.
However if my best friend, was killed in a restaurant by a gang land shooting, do I want the guy to spend 5 years in jail because he was 17?
No, I want him to go to jail for the same amount of time, that my friend does not get to breath any longer.
That is not intolerent, SQ, that is justice for the victim and there is no way to spin that.
The young offenders act, is incomplete and we are not giving the same attention to the victims of crime, as we are to the perpretrators of crime.
No one wants an American system. I promise you that, as fact!!!
However, some loser goes to the states and blows a few holes in their innocent citizens, they need to pay the piper in the states. Those are called consequences for your behaviour, in the country that you committed the crime.
If an American comes here does a crime in Canada, he gets a Canadian sentence....lucky him!!
"But the punishment must fit the circumstances."
And if a 14 year old kills someone in your family; he should get out in 6 years because he was only 14.
Face it SQ - the signs that someone is headed down the wrong path is apparent long before the crime is committed.
The point is that reform school, boot camp - whatever you want to call it, if can "reform" the young person - you know, by working on the problems that have lead to his behavior, why is that a bad thing.
The whole 14 year olds in jail with pedophiles was absolutely ridiculous. That was never suggested and you know it.
But, I would bet my bottom dollar that if some 14 year old raped and murdered your daughter -I would bet that putting them in jail with pedophiles would be too good for them....
If you say you would not think that; I would call you a liar.
I see everyone is in fine form today!!
The point has been made that if we can catch these mini criminals early, and reform them with some hard work and responsibilities maybe we will not have so many drive by shootings and innocent victims being killed.
What is better, a working farm, or juvenile detention. in reforming a young person?
Hunter,
Great topic!
This problem is getting very personal and emotional for many people in this country!
In many places, I found instances that I could contradict my own point,with other life experiences. lol
This problem needs to get back to BLACK OR WHITE, RIGHT OR WRONG.
Grey and maybe,are unacceptable!
So, southern Quebec has outed herself as female by referring to her ex, when she said, he quit.
And I see an annonomous has outed himself as a liberal supporter by his hahaha.
Reform school, was a threat many parents used, most of them not serious about it. What were the reasons kids were sent away.
What were serious crimes back in the 40s-50s. Never heard of a kid killing anyone, or killing their parents, or parents killing their kids. And most of the kids in Canada in those days were canadians.
Real problems started when refugees started coming from very violent countries where police were feared and life meant nothing. We, in our bleeding heart wisdom just assumed you could put this population with the rest and they would overcome all the horrible things they had seen and experienced within a few days.
I think we failed them badly.
Every time I hear of a gang related murder or theft or whatever, I pay attention to the name.
For years police and the dogooders refused to admit the gang problem was a problem or most belonged to one area of the population or come from one country.
How many of you have read about how the big O is going to solve the problem, by bringing back a form of the draft for all 18-25 year olds and calling it national service.
When did a lot of gang violence spring up, when they stopped the draft. Right or wrong, every person from all walks of life and all the states were given the same basic training and values. Of course we had a lot of them dodge the draft and come to Canada and become whatever. See one female soldier is being deported for going AWOL in Canada.
So, southern Quebec has outed herself as female by referring to her ex, when she said, he quit.
As if SQs gender matters. But he was quoting someone else, there were quotation marks. Then outside the quote, he scoffed at the claim that the quoted person's ex actually "quit".
And I see an annonomous has outed himself as a liberal supporter by his hahaha.
This blog does not allow anonymous, nor annonomous comments. I do not have a monopoly on laughing, except possibly in the blogs of humourless BTs. I have used hahas on many occasions. Hardly "outing" myself.
Sorry to come late to this party. I happen to have a few facts some of you may be interested in (in case anyone returns to this thread).
First - we did have a "boot camp" in this country. It was set up in Ontario under the Harris government and it failed - miserably.
Second - in Alberta there are several different types of custody. Youth can be detained in actual jail (young offender centres), in open custody group homes and in one of several camps located in rural areas. These are not "boot camps". All levels of custody involve counselling and treatment, though the actual jails offer very little in terms of these measures. Some open custody group homes are created for the purpose of addressing a specific problem, such as substance abuse. There is also a unit at Alberta Hospital for youth who suffer from mental illness - though they have to have committed a crime to go there.
The problem is not the types of custodial institutions we have, it is the fact that upon release these youth have to return to their former lives. It is our child welfare system that lacks appropriate resources, not our justice system.
By the way, when you come to court and discover there are not very many parents attending, that is because a significant number of these youths are under the guardianship of child welfare, and their social workers cannot be bothered to come to court. Many more should be in the care of child welfare, but our system in Alberta is so weak that many kids who need assistance will not get it.
Finally, for those of you complaining about 17 year olds only serving 4 years in jail, may I remind you that the YCJA contains provisions that permit youths to be sentenced as adults for certain crimes. That would be life in prison, not 4 years.
Boot camp for youths really do wonderful things for troubled youths. But these camps are not all the same. They offer different services, charge varying prices and have individual histories.
Before you choose a boot camp for youths, make sure you know what you should expect from these types of boot camps. See a rundown of the pros and cons before sending your troubled youth to boot camps.
Post a Comment