This is what passes for intellectual discourse these days:
University of Alberta may excise God from grad speech
In the speech, the chancellor urges those in mortar boards to use their newly granted parchments for "the glory of God and the honour of your country."
Bushfield said the reference is outdated and not reflective of recent national surveys that suggest one twenty-something in three doesn't believe in God.
"We want an inclusive convocation where everyone feels welcome and able to participate," said Bushfield.
I remember what a snob I was because I thought being in university made me better than those people staying on the farm to work. I remember how I was forced to listen to "Moonies" telling me why they were right and I was wrong. I remember having to sit and listen to a gay person tell me how his Mom dressed him up in girls clothes to model them for her clothes store. I remember how I knew I should feel enlightened, and as a small town girl, I just didn't understand why this should concern me at all, except to get a passing grade in an artsy course.
You see, I never got with the program because I never understood what the lefties were after. I could have cared less, I wrote them off as a weird crowd, and went on with my studies. It seems they are still at it, except they are not fringe groups anymore. The radicals we ignored 30 years ago, are now a force to be reckoned with because they are the vocal minority shouting over the silent majority.
Upon reaching the gruelling end of a long and tiresome journey, students embark across a stage for the convocation. Yet, despite the movement toward multicultural inclusiveness and tolerance, this is one stage that keeps the flame of bigotry burning bright.
Bigots???? Mentioning God makes us bigots?
Main Entry:
big·ot Listen to the pronunciation of bigot
Pronunciation:
\ˈbi-gət\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, hypocrite, bigot
Date:
1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Who is the real bigot here, who is being intolerant and a hypocrite? If you are so offended by a reference to God, refuse your degree, that will show us bigots. Better yet, refuse to take any public funding from Christians, pay the full bill for your education. Also do not work in a firm that might have Christian people working there, you might hear God mentioned! Do not build any bridges for firms that might have Christians involved, they might say "Thank God" when the bridge stands.
If you truly do not believe in God, then any reference to him should not worry you. Hypocrites talk out of both sides of their mouths; I do not believe in God, but any reference to God causes me to protest, because you should believe like I do. If you do not, you are a bigot.
A recent Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey suggests that around 36 per cent of Canadians under 25 don’t believe in a god. This means that when the chancellor issues his charge, he’s discriminating against all the students who disagree with the idea of living in fear of a deity. He also offends the senses of the majority who believe that a public institution should have no stance on religious issues. Atheism and agnosticism aren’t the only beliefs under attack— the idea of separation of church and state is as well.
So you don't believe in God, but you live in fear of a deity? Public institution, funded by who? Do any Christians pay property taxes? Discrimination? How about supporting the foundation on which this country was built, a Christian foundation?
I am ashamed that such a narrow minded person is getting any media attention, and as an alumni, I will not send anymore funds to the U of A, because obviously, my Christian money, is not wanted. Fine by me, I can donate more to my favorite charity instead, Dogs With Wings, they don't care whether I believe in God or not.
This guy is going to get a very rude awakening when he actually gets out into the "real" world.
Update: It appears an associate professor from Minnesota and his robots, have been freeping the Edmonton Sun poll. Wonder what all the anti-America U of A university students feel about that? Right, that's what I thought, you like Americans who support your views.
29 comments:
and as an alumni, I will not send anymore funds to the U of A, because obviously, my Christian money, is not wanted.
Funny but I reached the same conclusion vis-a-vis my alma mater. Way too leftwing for me to feel comfortable about supporting.
Oh boo hoo!!!! Christians are so persecuted!
Good for UofA. Maybe there will come a day when all G13 universities get past stone-age mythology.
The first lefty appears... his arguments are so compelling, I'm going to become an atheist! NOT!
Are you one of our immature university students who think they know it all? Bet you are studying something important like the environment; how to return us to the stone-age. Good luck with that.
I'm an atheist, and have been for as long as I can remember. However, unlike David, I don't make a religion out of my atheism. It just so happens I don't believe. I also don't believe in the tail wagging the dog. If two-thirds of the graduates are believers then the references to God should stay in. I'm sick to death the minority denying the majority their rights. My second wife killed herself over gambling problems, but that doesn't give me the right to deny gamblers their pleasures. Why should the majority be penalized because the minority are unable to deal with their problems.
Quit pontificating, David, once the Islamists have taken control you'll have to profess a belief in God or face severe consequences.
Powell Lucas, I am so sorry to hear that about your wife, I can not imagine the pain she was in to kill herself, and the pain that caused you.
Your point is very powerful, we can all have our beliefs, without causing pain to others. We can just live our lives to the best of our ability, without forcing others to change.
However, unlike David, I don't make a religion out of my atheism
You don't know a damn thing about me, so maybe you should refrain from making assertions. Thanks.
By the way, I'm sorry to hear about your wife as well. I couldn't imagine anything happening to either my wife or my daughter.
By the way, looks like the Edmonton Sun's poll on the matter makes it clear where the majority lies on this issue.
Xtians are cheesy and full of saturated fats. Atheists are slim but full of complex carbohydrates and essential micronutrients.
So, David, a poll makes it right? You form your opinions on polls? You can believe what you want, but why is it okay to change a tradition because you don't believe in it?
I want to change the tradition of homeowners paying at least 80% of university education, bet a poll would support that too. I think only apartment dwellers should have to pay for education because they are transient and more of a drain on our society because they move around all the time. They are also not expected to recycle like homeowners and therefore are detrimental to our environment.
Do you see the slippery slope one little radical can create? Do you really want to wake up the silent majority? Do you understand the real consequences actions can have. Environmentalists pushed for bio-fuels, look what happened with that, people starving.
If you delete God from the convocation, can I delete my tax contribution because I disagree with those actions?
One out of three don't believe means two out of three do believe.
Majority wins.
David is typical of his ilk - intolerant and bigoted. I have a couple of very good friends who are athiests (I am a diehard man of faith) and they believe that we all have the right to follow our own beliefs. They don't criticize my faith and I don't criticize their lack of the same faith. Unfortunately, people like David have not learned this lesson and, thus, exist only to hate. Thank God for people like Powell.
David - Powell can make any assertions he wishes - you put out a narrow-minded and highly offensive comment so you have to expect some assertions made on your character/personality. Our words and actions are a product of ourselves and you have not shown yourself to be tolerant or respectful. There, I've made an assertion.
It may say that one out of three does not believe, therefore 2 out of three are believers. But believers in what? They could be Wicans or Vegans. It doesn't mean that they are Christians. All Canadians taxes go to fund the universities, so why should the so-called Christian God get higher billing? Bushfield is correct, this is outdated. If you want a "good Christian education", go to a Christian university. (But watch out for the priests!)
"If you delete God from the convocation, can I delete my tax contribution because I disagree with those actions?"
Truly silly comment!
Question: "Would a convocation without reference to God exclude people?"
Of course not. It would simply make no statement about religion at all. Just as it currently makes no statement about pasta or teapots or trains or slavery or abortion. It would be completely neutral. Completely inclusive.
Question: "Would the act of removing references to God be detrimental to anybody?"
Of course it would. It would remove a benefit from Christians. It removes an 'advertisement' for their religious beliefs. It removes a group self-reinforcing affirmation.
Question: "Do Christians deserve this special benefit?"
No. Unless they can show that they are somehow correct and atheists, Hindus, Thor-believers, Pastafarians and Muslims are less entitled to their beliefs.
Question: "But Christianity is special because of the Canadian nation's traditions of a Christian foundation."
Well that depends how far you go back. I seem to remember people lived here before 'Canada' arrived on the scene.
Question: "But aren't the traditions of the nation of Canada more important?"
What, like not allowing women to go to university? If it wasn't for the overthrowing of tradition in favour of good sense then you wouldn't even get to go to convocation Hunter.
Have I missed anything? Have I been a bigot?
Bang on Google. Hunter sees Canada as CHRISTIAN. ...and what about us Pastafarians? Don't we have rights? Our invisible Power is bigger than your invisible Power!!!!!
"Hunter sees Canada as CHRISTIAN."
And it is. Well it's currently and partially Christian. If she's appealing to tradition and history then she fails because it wasn't always Christian and if she's appealing to majority then she fails because she's acknowledging her position isn't correct it's simply popular.
" ...and what about us Pastafarians? Don't we have rights?"
Of course you do. If you're stupid and credulous enough to believe that global warming is caused by a reduction in high-seas piracy that's entirely up to you. Ditto if you consider Christianity's answer correct in relation to the question of whether the whole natural order was overturned or whether a Jewish minx told a lie.
You can fill your plate from whatever sky-faerie fantasy buffet you like; noodles and meatballs or booze and crackers. It's all just food for fools.
But don't go trying to force people who don't share your delusions to dedicate three years of their life's work to a noodly appendage or some cannibalistic death cult.
"Our invisible Power is bigger than your invisible Power!!!!!"
Sure, but a whole galleon of ineffectual is still worth less that just a single piece of eight.
SQ - I don't believe her statement was "silly". I'd like to see somebody make the same statements or make the same move to remove religion if it involved Muslims, Jews, or Hindus directly. There would be a huge outcry. I think you and those who share your perspective are forgetting one thing: when you remove God, you are affecting not just Christians but also Jews and Muslims and you are also sending a message to Hindus and other religions that they don't count - this marginalizes people of faith.
People of faith are not just Christians but it seems that the bitter and vindictive segment of our population now feels quite free to jump all over us.
Substitute the word "black" or "native" for "Christian" and see how far you'd get. Think about it. Don't expect us to listen to your reasoning when you come out ready to eliminate us or diss our faith or our God. It is called "respect" and those of you who spew such disrespect are not worth our effort to try to understand your illogical and bigoted approach.
Remember - substitute the word "black" or "native" the next time you want to diss us Christian folk. Racism and bigotry take on many forms and you, David, and Google have just fallen right into it.
"If you delete God from the convocation, can I delete my tax contribution because I disagree with those actions?"
E of E: The reason this is a silly statement is because we cannot decide where our tax payments go. Ask Mr. Little of Nova Scotia who is refusing to pay taxes because the health care system pays for abortion. Hunter can decide not to donate to U of A because of a personal slight, but not decide where her income taxes go.
This was a university convocation, not a religious event. Religion has no place there -- unless the people being graduated are ministers. Plain and simple. No one is taking your religion away from you. They are just telling you to take it to a relgious institution not an academic one. That's all....
SQ - I disagree - religion does belong there - I'll bet that there was a good mosaic of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and other faith groups.
Do you know what is amazingly ironic? The preponderance of non-believers who use the expression "OMG" or "OMIGOD" incessantly. As a believer, I find it offensive but I say nothing. I expect the same from those who would love to see God go down in flames and take all of His faithful with Him.
It's funny how intolerant and narrow the non-believers can be. And they accuse us of being narrow and intolerant? Hah. Nothing like a diehard anti-faith person when it comes to intolerance.
EoE - "I'd like to see somebody make the same statements or make the same move to remove religion if it involved Muslims, Jews, or Hindus directly. There would be a huge outcry."
PZ Myers stuck a rusty nail through a communion wafer, pages from the Qur'an and Dawkins' God Delusion. He and his children received many death threats and a concerted campaign was mounted to have him sacked from his job. All were from Catholics. Not a single complaint was received from Muslims. Atheists praised him for his actions. So, the facts do not support your persecution complex.
Do you honestly think that an attempt to insert references to Allah in the convocation would be met with anything other than outrage? Do you honestly think its removal would not be attempted by atheists should such a thing be in place? You would be at the front of the queue for both would you not?
Regardless, the convocation is not referring to Allah or even the Jewish OT God. It's referring to the Christian God. Hunter herself acknowledges this.
So let's give it a rest with the factually incorrect strawmen and non-sequiturs shall we?
EoE - "Substitute the word 'black' or 'native' for 'Christian' and see how far you'd get. Think about it."
Christians are not being persecuted here. We're talking about removing unjustified special privileges that you enjoy at the expense of those who don't share your faith. We're not talking about subjugating your rights to those of others. We're talking about putting you on a level playing field with the rest of us. The fact that you can't see this speaks volumes about who the bigots really are and how blind you are to your own natures.
Why don't you try your own theory out accurately. Substitute 'for the Glory of white men' for 'for the Glory of God' in the words of the convocation and see how far you'd get.
EoE - "It's funny how intolerant and narrow the non-believers can be."
Huh? If you want to worship God that's up to you. No atheist I've ever met or spoken to or read would deny you the right to your own beliefs however idiotic they may consider them to be.
But that's not what you want. You want everyone to be forced to join in. You want everyone to subsidise you through tax breaks. You want everyone to respect you whilst refusing to respect them. You want to be superior. You want to be special.
You're neither. At least not in a good way.
AH! Google finally reveals the truth.
But that's not what you want. You want everyone to be forced to join in. You want everyone to subsidise you through tax breaks. You want everyone to respect you whilst refusing to respect them. You want to be superior. You want to be special.
We do not want to be superior, or special, we mainly just want to be left alone, but you won't let us be. Your comment sounds a lot like jealousy. If you have nothing to believe in, it must be very confusing, and makes you want to attack those who you THINK are superior, from your own words.
You want tax breaks for post secondary schooling, you want to force all taxpayers to pay for your education, you want the uneducated people to respect you because you have a degree, you think you are special and superior because you have/are attending university.
If you have so much time to post here, and protest on campus, you are not justifying taxpayers money that pays over 80% of that education, and you deserve no respect.
Funny thing happened when I was checking my site meter, it appears a professor in America is encouraging people to vote in the poll David mentioned. So, liberal supporter, do you agree that those dreaded Americans should be interfering with what the U of A does?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/10/canadian_poll_to_crash.php
He is encouraging his students/posters to crash the poll, funny how lefties think their opinions MUST be the only right ones. Shows the deep underbelly of the socialist movement. Why should an associate professor in the US care whether we keep God in our convocation or not?
Most of my professors were draft dodgers, maybe that explains it.
Like what is your IP address, Liberal Supporter?
As a Christian, I see nothing wrong with telling graduates to go and be moral. You see, it's not us making an issue of this, it's a person on a mission to delete God from all things Canadian, that's what I object to, like the kids on campus who shut down a pro-life organization, freedom of speech be damned. That bothers me.
Hunter - "We do not want to be superior, or special"
So how come you want only your beliefs represented in convocation? If you want a level playing field for all then you should be fighting to have that reference removed. Either you're lying or you didn't think before you posted that.
"Your comment sounds a lot like jealousy."
Nope. I don't want a reference to atheism inserted.
"If you have nothing to believe in"
Wow. That's colossally ignorant. Do you know anything about atheism? Do you even know what the word means? We just don't believe in supernatural deities. Here's an atheist's creed:
I believe in time,
matter, and energy,
which make up the whole of the world.
I believe in reason, evidence and the human mind,
the only tools we have;
they are the product of natural forces
in a majestic but impersonal universe,
grander and richer than we can imagine,
a source of endless opportunities for discovery.
I believe in the power of doubt;
I do not seek out reassurances,
but embrace the question,
and strive to challenge my own beliefs.
I accept human mortality.
We have but one life,
brief and full of struggle,
leavened with love and community,
learning and exploration,
beauty and the creation of
new life, new art, and new ideas.
I rejoice in this life that I have,
and in the grandeur of a world that preceded me,
and an earth that will abide without me.
"You want tax breaks for post secondary schooling, you want to force all taxpayers to pay for your education"
Sure. I want everyone to have access to the best possible education. But why are you implying I only want it for some arbitrarily chosen few?
"If you have so much time to post here, and protest on campus, you are not justifying taxpayers money that pays over 80% of that education"
It's my education that allows me to form cogent arguments as a counter to ignorant and ill-informed statements of bigotry. Now that's justification.
"and you deserve no respect."
Prosecution rests m'Lord.
"He is encouraging his students/posters to crash the poll, funny how lefties think their opinions MUST be the only right ones."
It's an internet poll. Open to all. Feel free to encourage those who agree with you to crash the poll in the opposite direction. Most polls even allow you to vote multiple times if you want. I should point out though that they're ridiculous things and anyone who takes any notice of the results is an idiot.
"Why should an associate professor in the US care whether we keep God in our convocation or not?"
In case you hadn't notice there happens to be a war going on in Iraq. According to Bush this is his "Mission from God". That's just one of the many many reasons why PZ Myers cares. And that's one of the reasons why I care. When religious rhetoric (like the convocation or the widespread acceptance of the normalcy of the voices in Bush's head) is accepted in society its effects are felt throughout the world.
"Most of my professors were draft dodgers, maybe that explains it."
Ugh! That's quite a nasty comment. But I'll bite. Which draft did they dodge? Did you go off to fight?
Hunter - "As a Christian, I see nothing wrong with telling graduates to go and be moral."
Eeew! I just threw up a little in my mouth. Nasty. You're not asking students to be moral. You're asking them to glorify God. The two are not the same. Morality and religious faith are orthogonal.
But if you want to play the morality card here's something for you to chew on.
Christians act morally by following a strict set of rules set down in the bronze-age by desert nomads in a far away land and a far away cultural context. This set of rules demands the death penalty, by stoning, for homosexuality, gathering firewood on Saturday (or you can choose Sunday if you want to get away with playing football on Saturdays), eating lobster and wearing wool and nylon at the same time. Oh, and children who tell their parents they don't want to eat cabbage. And you don't even want to consider the things the Old Testament God made people do in his name. Of course, faced with that monstrous 'morality', most Christians ignore the rules they don't like and fabricate their own morality by picking and choosing which ones to follow. The homosexuality thing usually figures big on the list but they often ignore the stoning bit. Christians follow their moral code through a desire to make God happy enough so that they don't get tortured by their 'loving' God for all eternity in a lake of boiling sulphur.
Atheists act morally by constructing, maintaining and investing in a framework of ethics developed over their entire life which is designed to adapt to changing circumstances, incorporate new knowledge and understanding and be rooted in a rational assessment of what benefits humanity the most. Atheists follow their moral codes through a desire to make the world a better place.
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